I never knew Denny O’Neil had left such a wide swath of destruction in his wake. If I recall, he was the editor during some of my favorite Batman runs (the only DC character I really cared for), and some of my least-favorite.
But what are comics even now? IPs for movies, at best, and even that is becoming exhausted. At worst, American comics at least are psychodramas for disturbed people to populate with self-inserts. It’s reader-repellant, or at least kid repellent. We have an awesome comic shop nearby but something like 95 percent of guests I see are there for movies, books, manga, video games, vinyl, toys, card games (Pokémon, Magic, etc.), RPGs, and board games, and events/tournaments they have. The only people I see browsing the sizable comic shelves are, I’d say, in their 30s to 50s, and there aren’t that many of them. The other week I saw a 20-something guy with a really cute girlfriend who were both checking out comics, but I remember that because it stood out.
From what I know, you're spot-on about the Marvel bullpen and their retreat from classical romance influences. But I still see DC as more plot-oriented than character-oriented through to the end of the Silver Age and into the Bronze age. But then I haven't read as many Flash and Superman stories from the Batmania years and therefore have a skewed perception. Was DC stressing continuity and making character relationships like Clark-Lois and Barry-Iris consume the A-plot up until '68?
I won't disagree with you on those. DC had a more literary background than Marvel, if you step back and look at the 40s and 50s, with no intent to throw shade on Stan and his staff. My DC experiences were wound around those core titles, as well as Adventure Comics (Legion) and the Doom Patrol (much better than the X-Men).
DC had very compartmentalized stories for quite some time. I don't know if it was when Julie took over as Editor-in-Chief that this changed, but you see many more continued stories in the 1970 and forward time frame.
Weisinger kept the Superman line almost totally restricted to single issue stories, but he used continuity to build a huge world that even the entire Marvel line couldn't match. The books constantly included or referred to various other elements of Superman's world, not in the same way Marvel did, but definitely enough to start its own encyclopedia.
Schwartz, I think, was somewhere in the middle between this approach and the Marvel approach. Just a guess though.
I think you are correct. Edmund Hamilton was crafting a huge amount of the Superman Family in the late 50s and early 60s while he was writing for National. That included Supergirl, the Legion, the Super Pets, Krypton, future Superman history, and much more. That would have been under Mort’s watch and direction.
Otto Binder, who came up with a lot of stuff for Captain Marvel, brought a lot of his inventiveness to Weisinger's Superman as well.
Crazy idea, isn't it, having actual science fiction writers working on a sci fi-based character like Superman? Good thing DC got over that stupid idea back in the 80s.
I don’t believe I’ve ever read a Doom Patrol comic. Sounds like I missed out. I did occasionally dabble in “Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes” and, for at least one that I remember, the writer followed the classical romance formula—and did it well.
I remember seeing it several times, but passed on it. I was all about the capes. Briefly, before the Army, I got into Sgt. Rock. But before long I went right back to capes—and started trying to explore the pulps.
The one I referenced is the original. The reboot wasn't bad, but it wasn't the old team or the original vibe, so I kind of let it go by the wayside after a few issues.
So Schwartz took over Batman in '64. That was when he got the "new look."
I agree about the emphasis on the detective aspect. There were no more sci-fi monster stories and the Batwoman/Batgirl love interests were abandoned. But it wasn't really dark. Batman was like an adjunct of the Gotham PD, operating in broad daylight with his garishly-costumed sidekick, etc. And then the influence of the '66 TV show took the character even further away from his vigilante roots.
It was around the early '70s he became the Darknight Detective again. Dick went away to college, Bruce and Alfred moved to the Wayne Foundation penthouse, the Batman's bat ears grew to dangerous lengths again and he operated almost exclusively at night again (but with Commissioner Gordon's approval).
You kinda' alluded to this when reporting on Denny O'Neil, and in a previous article IIRC, so I might just be sperging on your use of the word "dark."
I am adamant that the real force that kept Batman fresh for Miller to do his Dark Knight books was Frank Robbins. Robbins' Detective Comics run was like "Dark Knight at 30" while Miller's was "Dark Knight at 60". They mesh almost perfectly in tone and style.
Yeah—I don’t see Miller (or Moore) to be as innovative/groundbreaking as they’re cracked up to be. IMO their schtick in comics was similar to Tarantino’s in film: make it all more “mature” and “relevant” by adding sex and four-letter words while putting their own “unique stamp” on the mythos.
"To understand what the actual foundations *ARE* is our most important goal, so that the new edifice is not built on the sand of the old. In my view, Classical Romance and the genres which fall from it must be rediscovered and absorbed by new creators to effectively rebuild a culturally robust comic book ecosystem in the US.
Let’s get to it."
I've been making a serious effort since 2021. Finally getting somewhere this year, God-willing. Hope to have the first graphic novel published in '25. I have 3 scripted so far and am planning on at least one more of the super-ensemble series before branching into titles for the individual characters.
(A sci-fi adventure GN is in limbo for the time being, too.)
This is my first official foray into comics, and don't yet have a comic audience to bring along when I'm ready to crowdfund. So I sure could use some word-of-mouth when I'm ready to pull the trigger.
As soon as you said "they were active in the scifi fandom" I remembered JD Cowan's Last Fanatics series and went "uh oh". And they proceeded to do to comics what they did to the pulps, didn't they? Turned it all the gray goo. No wonder DC always lagges behind Marvel overall.
Yes, I think that has been an issue for some time. Neither Mort or Julie appeared to be as fanatic as many of the cult leader types, but they were part of the Fandom crowd, and gave it material support even after moving to comics.
As an aside, it almost feels like Schwartz, who was a huge fan of the Futuristic was continually butting heads with the Mythic. Mort didn't appear to have that difficulty or at least to that degree. Weisinger's Superman tended to be more Mythic, while Schwartz leaned Futuristic.
And that may also explain the bend toward the Futuristic on all titles once Mort retired. Hmm.
I never knew Denny O’Neil had left such a wide swath of destruction in his wake. If I recall, he was the editor during some of my favorite Batman runs (the only DC character I really cared for), and some of my least-favorite.
But what are comics even now? IPs for movies, at best, and even that is becoming exhausted. At worst, American comics at least are psychodramas for disturbed people to populate with self-inserts. It’s reader-repellant, or at least kid repellent. We have an awesome comic shop nearby but something like 95 percent of guests I see are there for movies, books, manga, video games, vinyl, toys, card games (Pokémon, Magic, etc.), RPGs, and board games, and events/tournaments they have. The only people I see browsing the sizable comic shelves are, I’d say, in their 30s to 50s, and there aren’t that many of them. The other week I saw a 20-something guy with a really cute girlfriend who were both checking out comics, but I remember that because it stood out.
Excellent series. I read some or all of these when they were originally posted, but re-reading them has been fun. Thanks for writing these.
You are very welcome. Glad you are enjoying them.
From what I know, you're spot-on about the Marvel bullpen and their retreat from classical romance influences. But I still see DC as more plot-oriented than character-oriented through to the end of the Silver Age and into the Bronze age. But then I haven't read as many Flash and Superman stories from the Batmania years and therefore have a skewed perception. Was DC stressing continuity and making character relationships like Clark-Lois and Barry-Iris consume the A-plot up until '68?
I won't disagree with you on those. DC had a more literary background than Marvel, if you step back and look at the 40s and 50s, with no intent to throw shade on Stan and his staff. My DC experiences were wound around those core titles, as well as Adventure Comics (Legion) and the Doom Patrol (much better than the X-Men).
DC had very compartmentalized stories for quite some time. I don't know if it was when Julie took over as Editor-in-Chief that this changed, but you see many more continued stories in the 1970 and forward time frame.
Weisinger kept the Superman line almost totally restricted to single issue stories, but he used continuity to build a huge world that even the entire Marvel line couldn't match. The books constantly included or referred to various other elements of Superman's world, not in the same way Marvel did, but definitely enough to start its own encyclopedia.
Schwartz, I think, was somewhere in the middle between this approach and the Marvel approach. Just a guess though.
I think you are correct. Edmund Hamilton was crafting a huge amount of the Superman Family in the late 50s and early 60s while he was writing for National. That included Supergirl, the Legion, the Super Pets, Krypton, future Superman history, and much more. That would have been under Mort’s watch and direction.
Otto Binder, who came up with a lot of stuff for Captain Marvel, brought a lot of his inventiveness to Weisinger's Superman as well.
Crazy idea, isn't it, having actual science fiction writers working on a sci fi-based character like Superman? Good thing DC got over that stupid idea back in the 80s.
And since you mentioned Edmond Hamilton... https://nightskyradio.com/2015/12/30/colonel-future/
Alfred Bester on the Golden Age Green Lantern was the one who convinced Schwartz to get into comics. Binder was all over comics in the 40s and 50s.
I don't think I've read any of Bester's DC work. Maybe I did in reprints as a kid, but nothing i can recall. I'll have to see about finding some.
I also need to, you know, read a Bester novel or two sometime in my life.
I don’t believe I’ve ever read a Doom Patrol comic. Sounds like I missed out. I did occasionally dabble in “Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes” and, for at least one that I remember, the writer followed the classical romance formula—and did it well.
My Greatest Adventure 80 was the first book, then at Issue 100(?) the title changed to Doom Patrol, ending at Issue 122 or thereabouts.
I remember seeing it several times, but passed on it. I was all about the capes. Briefly, before the Army, I got into Sgt. Rock. But before long I went right back to capes—and started trying to explore the pulps.
The one I referenced is the original. The reboot wasn't bad, but it wasn't the old team or the original vibe, so I kind of let it go by the wayside after a few issues.
When did you first get into comics? Did you ever work in the industry?
So Schwartz took over Batman in '64. That was when he got the "new look."
I agree about the emphasis on the detective aspect. There were no more sci-fi monster stories and the Batwoman/Batgirl love interests were abandoned. But it wasn't really dark. Batman was like an adjunct of the Gotham PD, operating in broad daylight with his garishly-costumed sidekick, etc. And then the influence of the '66 TV show took the character even further away from his vigilante roots.
It was around the early '70s he became the Darknight Detective again. Dick went away to college, Bruce and Alfred moved to the Wayne Foundation penthouse, the Batman's bat ears grew to dangerous lengths again and he operated almost exclusively at night again (but with Commissioner Gordon's approval).
You kinda' alluded to this when reporting on Denny O'Neil, and in a previous article IIRC, so I might just be sperging on your use of the word "dark."
I do that, sometimes.
I am adamant that the real force that kept Batman fresh for Miller to do his Dark Knight books was Frank Robbins. Robbins' Detective Comics run was like "Dark Knight at 30" while Miller's was "Dark Knight at 60". They mesh almost perfectly in tone and style.
Yeah—I don’t see Miller (or Moore) to be as innovative/groundbreaking as they’re cracked up to be. IMO their schtick in comics was similar to Tarantino’s in film: make it all more “mature” and “relevant” by adding sex and four-letter words while putting their own “unique stamp” on the mythos.
Another fantastic deep dive, Atom.
"To understand what the actual foundations *ARE* is our most important goal, so that the new edifice is not built on the sand of the old. In my view, Classical Romance and the genres which fall from it must be rediscovered and absorbed by new creators to effectively rebuild a culturally robust comic book ecosystem in the US.
Let’s get to it."
I've been making a serious effort since 2021. Finally getting somewhere this year, God-willing. Hope to have the first graphic novel published in '25. I have 3 scripted so far and am planning on at least one more of the super-ensemble series before branching into titles for the individual characters.
(A sci-fi adventure GN is in limbo for the time being, too.)
This is my first official foray into comics, and don't yet have a comic audience to bring along when I'm ready to crowdfund. So I sure could use some word-of-mouth when I'm ready to pull the trigger.
Best of luck with your comics.
I know a couple people in low places. I'll get the word out!
As soon as you said "they were active in the scifi fandom" I remembered JD Cowan's Last Fanatics series and went "uh oh". And they proceeded to do to comics what they did to the pulps, didn't they? Turned it all the gray goo. No wonder DC always lagges behind Marvel overall.
Yes, I think that has been an issue for some time. Neither Mort or Julie appeared to be as fanatic as many of the cult leader types, but they were part of the Fandom crowd, and gave it material support even after moving to comics.
As an aside, it almost feels like Schwartz, who was a huge fan of the Futuristic was continually butting heads with the Mythic. Mort didn't appear to have that difficulty or at least to that degree. Weisinger's Superman tended to be more Mythic, while Schwartz leaned Futuristic.
And that may also explain the bend toward the Futuristic on all titles once Mort retired. Hmm.
Geez and it shows on the sales figures graph you posted. The Delta between DC and Marvel is stark.
It was, wasn't it? And National's distribution arm was putting Marvel on the stands.